St Patricks Well - Carrigatoher

The eagle eyed among you might have spotted that I mentioned a big upcoming discovery. At that stage I thought I had discovered some "new" rock-art at a holy well known as St Patricks Well in the townland of Carrigatoher.

The possibly of some kind of rock art was brought to my attention by a follower of my facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Thetipperaryantiquarian/. Joann Hinz's roots go back to many areas that feature prominently on my page such as Townlough near Portroe (home of The Graves of the Leinstermen) and areas in Burgess / Kiladangan parishs. She sent me a link to some very interesting folklore from the recently uploaded Irish Folklore Commission information on duchas.ie.

www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/5162112/5155297
Armed with this sketch on my phone, I surveyed the holy well in the hope that I could find what seemed like very specific information regarding rock-art. After a good look around at the well I was about to leave when I sat and had one last look at the well and anything that might out of the ordinary. The duchas.ie information mentions that the stone was in a ditch but there was nothing obvious like that to see, so I examined the site for anything that seemed out of the ordinary. That's when I had the light-bulb moment when I thought that the stones at the swing gate into the well enclosure seemed out of proportion with their function. They were also the only part of the wall that was unrendered.

I had a look at these two stones and excitably noted the unusual depressions on the larger of the two stones. Immediately I thought these must be the marks of St Patricks Fingers / the rock-art. I also thought that there was one cupmark on the smaller stone. I took a number of photos and went away relatively happy that I had found some new rock-art. There was a nagging doubt as the depressions weren't as "cup-like" as other places that I had seen them. Basically these depressions are pretty vertical while cup marks should have a smoother slope out of the bottom of the cup. Imagine a cylinder versus a dome in terms of slope.

I went back the following night and took some night time photos to further enhance the cup like shape of the depressions. I sent these photos on to two rock-art experts that I know online and both were very positive (as much as you can be from photographs only) and said that there was a great chance that they were cupmarks.

I even went back another evening to get some photos around sunset to try and illuminate the markings in a different light.

Next I sent on the photos to the local National Monuments Service archaeologist who was again very positive from the photos that they could be cupmarks. He inspected but unfortunately as below he thinks that they are "water solution holes" or maybe had even been drilled for some reason. I was obviously disappointed by this result but relieved in one way as I was concerned by shape of the cup-marks as to whether they were real or not.


Following this I do wonder whether these are St Patricks Finger marks mentioned in the Irish Folklore Commission? It does seem to be quite a coincidence that marks such as these should be in the location mentioned.
On the other hand they don't look anything like the sketch provided. So does this mean this rock-art is still out there waiting to be found? Could it have been moved or covered in the locality?
There are two other holy wells in the vicinity (One is a St Brigids Well and in a different townland, the other also a St Patricks Well and also in a different townland) could there be markings at either of those wells?
As always I seem to leave things with more questions than answers but I suppose that is what makes the whole area of history and archaeology so interesting.


Archaeology.ie has this to say about the Well - I've highlighted the updated section following my "discovery".


"Situated on flat pasture in an upland area. A natural spring well of rectangular plan (0.75m x 0.65m x 0.9m H) enclosed by a stone canopy set into the S face of a low rise of ground with a stream running out from the S face of the well. No votive offerings are visible. According to the OS Letters the well was visited on St Patrick's Day and every Saturday for its curative powers (O'Flanagan 1930, vol. 3, 115). Stone on top of wall beside swing gate has several holes on the upper surface which appear to be water solution holes rather than prehistoric rock art as suggested in the folklore recored in the National Folklore Schools' Collection. In 1938 the following folklore regarding this stone was recorded in Carrick National School; ’At St. Patrickswell in the townsland of Ballywilliam in the Parish of Youghlalarra is a stone on which there are marks. I (the writer) was always told as a young lad that the marks were those of St Patrick's fingers. The stone is from 5 to 6 ft in length & 2 to 3 ft high. I do not know how wide it is as it is built into the fence. The marks are somewhat like the following, all on the face but I could see without the ditch that there are some of top. They look like Bronze age markings’ (pers. comm. Joann Hinz; The Schools’ Collection, Volume 0535, Page 472; www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/5162112/5155297)"

Killoscully

This carving only came to light during the completion of the Archaeological Inventory of North Tipperary in the early 90s. There are two schools of thought about this carving. One is that it is 9th / 10th century depiction of Christ the Warrior. You can just make out a figure holding a shield over their torso with two hands. It has been compared to the figures on White Island in Co. Fermanagh that are thought to date to the 9th/10th Centuries. The other school of thought suggests that it is of post medieval date and a naïve form of folk art.

 

The concept of Christ the Warrior is a very interesting and is meant to date to early Christian / Medieval Ireland. I first read about it in Fr Sean O'Dúinn's book "Where Three Streams Meet". http://www.columba.ie/index.php/where-three-streams-meet.html

We all think of Jesus Christ as being this peaceful figure who turns the other cheek. However as you might imagine this was a tough sell to the pagans of Ireland who perhaps still worshipped gods such Lugh who was a man of action and was still a warrior society.

In his book O'Duinn (who is himself a monk) tells the story of when  Jesus leads a raid on hell itself. Unfortunately I can't find my copy of the above book at the moment but a 2014 book "The Conversion of Britain: Religion, Politics and Society in Britain, 600-800" deals with a similar idea. In it they talk of a 10th century poem where Jesus is the leader of a group of apostles who raid hell to rescue John the Baptist. Extract from book I believe this is someway similar to the idea of the "Harrowing of Hell" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell in which Jesus goes down to Hell after the cruxifiction on Good Friday and "brought salvation to all of the righteous who had died since the beginning of the world (excluding the damned).^"

Similar ideas to this relating to Christ the Warrior are mentioned in An Irish Motif on a Group of Early Irish High Crosses? (pg 71) on JSTOR.

As you can imagine this warrior version of Jesus was probably more appealing to the Gaelic Irish at the time of the introduction of Christianity.

From archaeology.ie

"Situated on an E-facing slope of rising ground in a valley in a mountainous region with a nearby stream to the E. Referred to as the 'Church of Kilcascoln' in the taxation of the Diocese of Cashel in 1302 (CDI, vol. 5, 281). A nineteenth-century RC church built on the site of a medieval parish church (TN032-002), the wall-footings of which were removed to facilitate the construction of the present church. According to local information an Early Christian decorated pillar stone now in the graveyard (TN032-002001) was discovered in the fabric of the wall-footings and was erected in its present location in the graveyard. The pillar is decorated with a figure of Christ the Warrior with a shield carved in relief and a vertical slot/groove running up the side. This is a possible caryatid used as a decorative frame around an object inside an Early Christian church. The oval-shaped face is similar to the figures on the Moon high cross in Co. Kildare while the depiction of Christ the Warrior on pillar stones is found on possible caryatids from White Island, Lower Lough Erne, Co. Fermanagh. Both the Moon high cross and the Fermanagh figures are dated to the ninth/tenth century and it is possible that a similar date could be assigned to the Killoscully figure. However the naivety of the carving along with the unusual representation of the feet may suggest a folk art tradition of the nineteenth century. The groove along the side of the pillar could have acted as a support for an altar/sedilia with the figure acting as decorative border."

Youghalarra

Ruins of Church at Youghalarra

Did St. Coana have a church at Youghalarra in North Tipp before the arrival of St. Patrick to Ireland?
I came across a very interesting bit of folklore this week about Youghalarra Graveyard. Previously I posted the photo shared which from the archaeological inventory is thought read "'ST. COE[ ]' and underneath this 'NE 433'"
The Irish Folklore Commission has this to say about the graveyard.
...

"On part of the wall of the old church is the figure of a head with the inscription St Coana 433 AD. It is recorded St. Coona died in 433 A.D.
Saint Patrick came to Ireland in 432 and his visit to Munster did not take place till after the year 450. Bishop Palladuis preceeded Saint Patrick. Saint Ailbe of Emly visited Rome before the coming of Saint Patrick and four bishops laboured in Ireland at the time of his coming.
Saint Kieran was a bishop in the Ely O'Carroll territory. Youghal Ara being the birthplace of Saint Ailbe it is only natural to expect that he would establish a church there and ordain a priest before the coming of Saint Patrick. The church of Saint Coona was constructed of timber the present ruin was built at a later period. The ruin stands north of Youghal village on high ground. It is built of brownish and reddish grit stone. The interior surface of the wall presents a structure of small and long stones, the long stones in particular are shaped quadrangular and polygonal and some are shapeless but all are dressed with a chisel or hammer."
http://www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/4922150/4856531/5012166
Unfortunately it doesn't say who collected the above folklore but there are a few pages about religious remains in the same parish by what is probably the same person. There are a number of errors that I can see in what they write so does that call into question what they record about one of the earliest churches in Ireland being located at Youghalarra? It probably does. For example they confuse the place of birth of Saint Ailbe - it is more widely thought that he was born in South Tipp near Emly.
However Youghalarra is far more important than curently thought of now. It is more than likely an early Christian Monastery with a double bullaun stone and holy well nearby (all signs of a monastic site). People still go to the holy well on its "pattern" day of 24th July each year. The holy well is dedicated to St Conlan - I'm not sure if that is the same person as St. Coana.

Edit - 24/04/16


Quick update on the source of the Youghalarra information, indicating that it might have been the location of a pre-St. Patrick church. I have been reading The History of Ely O'Carroll Territory by Rev. John Gleeson (1915) and the information recorded on duchas.ie pretty much comes word for word from this book. Unfortunately that doesnt take me any closer to the source as Rev Gleeson doesn't record where his information originated. He does vaguely mention that some of the information about the existing ruin at Youghalarra originates with the 1840 ordnance survey (His father was a surveyor) but there is nothing definite.

Corderry

From archaeology.ie
"On a platform in gently sloping moorland on the W slope of Moanour mountain which is at the W end of Slievenamuck mountain. This wedge-tomb is partially buried in the surrounding bog. It consists of a long wedge-shaped gallery (L 5.4m; Wth 1.1m tapering to 0.65m at the backstone), flanked at either side by the remains of an outer wall (De Valera and Ó Nualláin 1982, 95-6). A pair of orthostats stand behind the E end of the gallery (ibid.). Two roofstones lie across the middle of the gallery and a displaced roofstone rests above the orthostats at the W end of the N side (ibid.). A number of displaced stones lie in front of the entrance (ibid.). The structure is incorporated in a roughly circular mound (diam. 8-9m) which rises little above the surface of the bog (ibid.). Monument is quite heavily overgrown with gorse, brambles, ferns and scrub with a rowan tree on the S side of the E end growing on the tomb."

This is one of the few wedge tombs in South Tipperary. It is located in the Glen of Aherlow not far from a passage tomb at nearby Shrough.
It is located on Sliabh Na Múic or the "Hill of the Pig" and these hills are full of legends of Giants and their deeds.

Here is one for example from duchas.ie

"A long, long time ago there lived a fierce black pig on the Sliab na Muc Hills. This pig was the terror of the neighbourhood and nobody would dream of roaming on the hilltops for fear of meeting with this terrible beast. It happened that one day a great giant called Diarmuid chanced to come across the pig at a point or peak on those hills called Corrin (Cairn). The pig in its rage started rooting up the ground and continued doing so until it had made a huge deep hole. This hole is still to be seen and for years everybody that passed it by threw a stone into it, why I cannot say.
The giant then attacked the pig put could not kill it. The battle raged for hours and towards sunset they found themselves 3 or 4 miles further east at a place called Rathdarby. The giant here made a last attempt with his spear to kill the pig but he missed his
thrust only to find the pig taking a sudden hold of him on the ground. It then seized the giant by the throat and killed him. He was buried on the spot where today three large stones mark the site of his grave. This grave is on Mr. T. Kennedys land Rathdarby, a few miles from here.
All the old people called the valley lying south of the Sliab na Muc Hills the "Valley of the Black Pig"."
http://www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/4922302/4868451/5053713

It was very overgrown when I visited and from other photos I have seen this looks to be its general state. I found a picture (included below) of it by Borlase from 1910 when it wasn't as overgrown.
The entrance of the tomb points to the west in an area where (from the plan) only the summer solstice sunset could penetrate. It is possible that it is looking towards one of the hills around Lough Gur.


Looking into the tomb

Inside the tomb

Inside the tomb

Inside the tomb

View to the west from the entrance of the chamber

This is actually the western end of the tomb looking into it

View over the tomb (lost in the undergrowth)

After Borlase

Timoney Stones

A few of the Timoney Stones

Do over 300 standing stones date to ancient times as their appearance might suggest or are they an elaborate landlords “folly” built sometime in the 1800s?  
I was lucky enough to find a website put together by relatives of Jim Ryan, a local historian who wrote about the area in 1980.

http://www.mie.ie/staff/sdelaney/Book/indexbook.htm

I decided an interesting way to look at whether they are ancient or not is to examine a time line of the information that I have on them and look at how they appear and disappear in and out of history.

1814 – "Hutchinson planted many groves of trees in the area in 1814 to make the land more attractive as it is natural rocky. It is possible that these stones were erected by Hutchinson. There is evidence that this is not this is not the case and this comes in the form of William's son, John Dawson Hutchinson. John wrote diaries which mention the changes to the land made by his father. He mentions that the origin of the stones are unknown. He says, "...there are several of these (stones) through the land...Several have bee rooted (removed) by tenants and some in the course of the improvements carried on here... I cannot pretend to say what might have been their use." (Parker-Hutchinson Papers, NLI, p123)" From www.standingstone.ie)

1833 – A.B. Wynne an officer of the Geological Survey studied the geology of the Timoney area and commented in his field notes that there are “upright stones all over this place” (Stout, 1986)

Date unknown - 6” Cassini – Not shown on this version

1837 – 1842 6” Map – Not shown on this version

1850 – “Before their reclamation, about 1850, Timoney hills were covered with stones and large boulders. This reclamation was a kind of relief work, after almost three years of famine and hunger” (Ryan, 1980, 38)

1860/70 – “the standing stones were used as the outlines of a racecourse hence the name “racecourse”. The judges sat on the altar stone” (Ryan, 1980, 19)

1888 – 1913 25” Map – Not shown on this version

1915 - Mention of the stones in the "History of Ely O'Carroll Territory". Author Rev Gleeson's first post as a parish priest was actually in the parish of Kyle & Knock where the Timoney Stones are located. George Cunnigham (who we seen introducing Jim Ryan's book on the parish on Youtube) writes an introduction to the 1982 reprint of the book and he comments on the lack of references to the Timoney Stones in the book. Cunningham says "This abscene of comment by him has been used to dismiss the stones as a folly". However as Cunningham says Rev Gleeson actually mentions them twice.

While talking about the Druids Altar at Creggawn in the parish of Youghal Ara he says "Similar places are situated in the parish of Knock, Roscrea on the Timoney estate; in two fields the circular stones are still standing"
He also says while talking about Magherymore (near Knockshegowna) which he suggests "was one of those places in Ireland devoted to Druidic worship". He goes on to say that two other of this kind have been noted "one on the estate of Timoney, near Roscrea, and the other in the parish of Youghal Ara".

1934 – “It was Andy Dowling, Clonmeen, Errill, who first brought the standing stones to the notice of the Board of Works before 1934.” (Ryan, 1980, 18)
1935 – Taken over as National Monument (Ryan, 1980, 18)
1935 – Wall built through the circle by Jim Ryan and some stones crushed by council (Ryan, 1980, 19)
1937-38 Duchas.ie - Irish Folklore Commission mentions them;

http://www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/4922187/4859342/5018720
"There is a field in this district, it is called the racecourts field. It is situated in the town-land of Cullawn, parish of Knock and the County of Tipperary. There are several upright stones in this field. There is supposed to be men of note buried at all those stones. It is supposed by the Antiquarians to be the oldest graveyard in Ireland. The round stone in the middle is the Druid's altar. It is taken over by the "Board of Works" and may be excavated yet."
It doesn't say say who the informant or collector is / was.

1935-1980? “An Englishman, named Mr. Adams, spent the summer of almost twenty years exploring in the district. He claimed to have come on two prehistoric burial places, one near the Hutchinson cemetery in Cullawn, and the other in Timoney Hills near a small rath on Kelly’s land. I met him on numerous occasions, and he told me he was writing a book on his discoveries in different parts of Ireland, also parts of England. Each year he stayed at Mount Prospect, Borris-in-Ossory, now known as the Leix County Hotel. Mr. Adams often walked for hours after a ploughman, picking up bits of pottery, unusual stones, etc. He found charcoal around the Altar Stone and inside the outer circle of standing stones, which he claimed was the remains of where the druids burnt their fire offerings.” (Ryan, 1980, 18)

1980 – History and Traditions of Knock and Timoney by Jim Ryan

http://www.mie.ie/staff/sdelaney/Book/page2.htm

1984 Stout, G The archaeological survey of the barony of Ikerrin. Roscrea Heritage Society.

“The Timoney Stones are located on the former Hutchinson (later Parker-Hutchinson) estate 1.5Km south-west of Knock village. The original Hutchinson was a Cromwellian soldier who received these lands under the Acts of Settlement who received lands under the Acts of Settlement and Explanation of 1663 and had taken possession of the lands by 1700 (Gleeson D.F, 1947, 95). In 1833, A.B. Wynne, an officer of the Geological Survey studied the geology of the Timoney area and commented in his field notes on “the upright stones all over this place” (Feehan J. 1978, 25). These standing stones, however, were not marked on the 1840 or 1904 editions of the OS 6” sheets. They finally came to official notice when Mr. Andy Dowling of Erril, Co. Laois, made contact with the National Museum of Ireland, through his intermediary Ms. Helen Roe. A survey of the area, undertaken in 1934, revealed the existence of 292 stones of varying sizes, made of local sandstone and conglomerate, and a circle of sixteen uprights enclosing an area 60m in diameter (E16.7 N27.4 S194837). In the centre of the circle was “a round flat stone, about 1m in diameter, and beside it, forming a three sided compartment are three small uprights 15cm high above the ground” (Mahr A 1937, 363). More recently there has been controversy surrounding the origin and purpose of these stones (O Nualain S. 1975, 83-131; Cunningham G. 1976, 77-78; O Riordain S.P. 1979, 149). This uncertainty has arisen out of the lack of a sensible plan for the stones other than the 'circle', the loose setting of many of the uprights and the lack of historical documentation and local tradition. A recently updated map of the complex was kindly given to the writer for consultation by the National Parks and Monuments Branch of the Office of Public Works, who are the custodians of this National Monument (N M353). This map shows 292 stones covering an area of roughly 100 acres. These are concentrated in the eastern boundary of Timoney Hills Td. and the southern half of Cullaun Td., in rocky, uneven, furze-covered terrain. They are confined to an area delimited by recent boundaries, as follows: in the east and south by townland boundaries, in the west by a forestry plantation, and in the north-west by the parklands of Timoney and the road to Knock. Only at the north-east do the stones stop before reaching a modern boundary. No standing stones have been noted in the afforested areas of the demesne. The updated map shows that 101 stones have been destroyed in the past fifty years due to fence and road construction. All the surviving stones in Cullaun Td. are upright, whereas over 50% of those in Timoney Hills Td. are prostrate. Superficially, the complex displays features that are common to stone circles in the south-west of Ireland (O Nuallain S. 1975, 83-131). These include the occurrence of a 'burial' inside the circle, a tangential alignment running out from the circle, and associated cairns. However, further examination of these features casts certain doubts on their authenticity. The flat stone covering the internal stone structure is dressed and resembles a millstone indicating a relatively recent deposition. The alignment of uprights marked on the map surveyed in 1934 is no longer present. They appear irregularly spaced on the map and do not run in a north-east/south-west axis which is a feature of the south-west of Ireland examples. The cairns have also been removed. Because of the quantity of stone strewn through the land, there is the possibility that these were clearance cairns. There are only six of the uprights remaining in the circle at present. These vary in height from 90cm to 2.30m. A feature of the stone circles in Cork and Kerry is a regular grading of heights westwards from the entrance stone, wich is usually in the north-east. This is not apparent in the Timoney circle. The haphazard concentration of standing stones south of the circle in Timoney Hills Td. is unique in Ireland, occurring as they do in no logical plan. They are irregularly spaced and vary in orientation. Many are physically isolated by the uneven terrain. It is the opinion of the author that the evidence against this complex being a prehistoric ritual site far outweighs that evidence which attests to its authenticity. To date, however, there has been no satisfactory alternative explanation for these standing stones. Their dismissal as a folly is a simple but unconvincing argument because they display such irregularity and cannot be said to have made an aesthetic or practical improvement to the land. It would also be convenient to suggest that excavation could shed some light on this problem, but as Stone Circles are notorious for their lack of finds (O Riordáin S.P. 1979, 156) it is possible that the doubts concerning these ‘Timoney Stones’ may never be resolved.”

https://www.flickr.com/photos/13367662@N06/4002188574/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13367662@N06/4002192302/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13367662@N06/4001430245/in/dateposted-public/


2002 - In 2002 archaeological monitoring by Anne-Marie Lennon on all ground disturbace near this site revealed nothing of archaeological interest. This monitoring was carried out under License No. 02E1125 (Bennett 2004, 476). Irish Grid Ref. of monitoring 21944/18391."

2008? Archaeologist Tatjana Kytmanow does brief informal survey of some of the upright stones and notes marks that could only be made by steel tools suggesting a modern date for their erection.

2015 – Survey by Caimin O’Brien – all remaining stones fully surveyed and uploaded to www.archaeology.ie

One last interesting thing that I note from Jim Ryan’s book is that he mentions that in the townland of Newtown, that of the 8 families that resided in 1905 / 1915 that none of those original families were in that parish anymore (by 1980 I assume). It was very much an area that suffered a lot of upheaval and as such perhaps that could help explain why little folklore survived about the stones.
The other reason of course is that they never existed long enough to gain folklore because they were a 19th century folly. 
Video of George Cunningham & Jim Ryan talking about the stones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMbgOT_zpqI

Cattle preventing me entering the field to see more of them. This can be a regular problem.

Harps of Cliu

The Harps of Cliu are steep rivers coming down from the Galty Mountains in Co. Tipperary. This is an area full of folklore. In myth they are supposed to be the harp played by Cliu or Cliach in his attempt to woo the daughter of Bodh Derg who lives in his palace or Sídh on Sliabh na mBan. Interestingly enough I doubt that the two features are intervisible.


Taken from duchas.ie


"The legendary origin of this name occurs in the Dindshencus. According to this legend Cliach was a harper in love with the daughter of Bodh Derg who had his palace on Sliabh na mBan. Being unsuccessful in his wooing Cliach retired to the top of the Galtees where he continue to play and sing all to no effect. Some accounts say he was seized by a dragon and died of fright, another account that he plunged into the lake and was drowned."


http://www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/5162130/5156626/5197487


Similarily


Taken from Mythic Ireland

"In legend the supernatural harper, Clíu, emerged from this mountain síd to make music on the stringed watercourses. He hoped thereby to attract a goddess of neighbouring Slievenaman, daughter of the pre-Celtic god Bodh Dearg.

This is a late variant on the myth where the Dagda comes from the síd to harp the seasons into being. His 'finger breezes' play across the gullet 'strings' where falling waters contribute to the melody."