Lough Thuile and the lake monster

Lough Thuile near Kilcommon in North Tipp.

A Mountainy Lake Monster?

"On top of a Hill in townland of Garrycummer is a lake called Loughthuile. It has no outlet. An attempt was made to drain it hundreds of years ago but when they looked back as they were just letting go the water all the houses in the valley below were on fire and so the lake was left as it is. ....

Like all mountain tarns a monster guards the lake. A Huge Eel appears there occasionally and when a death is about to take place a light crosses it. It is said that no man could swim it that the monster would suck him down in the middle. It is frequented by plover, wild duck and wild geese but contains no fish of any kind."

https://www.duchas.ie/en/cbes/4922168/4857884/5018877

There is similar folklore about the draining of Lough Muskry in the Glen of Aherlow, when they tried to drain it, there houses ended up on fire back at home.

Also similar to Lough Muskry - there is a story of a lake monster.

The Kings Stone near Knockgraffon, Cahir, South Tipperary

Has anyone ever hear of "The Kings Stone" in the River Suir near Knockgraffon / Cahir in South Tipp?

It is referenced in the book The Suir - from its Source to Sea by L.M. McGrath with the attached photo of it (which is pretty inconclusive to me in terms of location).

Why is it important?

Well it is said that it was the stone on which the most ancient ancestor (Fiacha Muilleathan) of the Eoganachta or original Kings of Munster was born. Seemingly being born here on a stone between boundaries was to fulfil a prophecy.

In McGrath's book it says "It lies in the river-bed within sight of the mote, not far from where Ballydrehid House now stands." (The mote being Knockgraffon).

There is nothing marked on the old OS maps in the river near Ballydrehid House but there is to the north of Knockgraffon Motte on the River Suir. 

 

There is a stone marked in the river and described in the SMR as follows ""Indicated as a rock or outcrop in the River Suir, adjacent to the N bank, on the 1st (1840) and 1900-05 ed. OS 6-inch map and named 'Cloghnahenar' [An chloch ina h'aonar; literally translated as: Stone on its own]. It appears to have marked a fording point which is indicated on the 1st ed. OS 6-inch map. The river was swollen at time of inspection and the stone was not visible. Church (TS068-098----) located c. 300m to N and enclosure possible (TS068-099----) located c. 310m to NE."

However you would imagine that the SMR might mention it in relation to the Eoghanachta legend? Plus how does its name tie in with that story (if it is it)?

So I'm looking for any local knowledge about the location of the Kings stone in the River Suir?

I had read about it in McGraths book but it was brought back to my attention on another facebook group by a poster there who is also keen to discover its whereabouts.

Where is the Brehon's Chair on Kyle Hill on the Offaly / Laois border

 

Does anyone know the location of Kyle Hill on the Laois / Offaly border just to the east of Roscrea or even better still the location of the Brehon's chair that is said to be located on the hill.

I have not been able to find the exact location of the hill to date.

John Feehan in "The Landscape of the Slieve Blooms" pgs 212 & 213 says the following

"The hills here, rising to over 275 metres in Laughil and to nearly 250 metres in Ballyduff to the south-west, were called Slewnemoronty, which is probably sliabh na mórdhala (-áltaí?), the mountain of the assembly, which is not unlikely in view of the traditions associated with Saint Thomas' Seat which is a conspicuous outcrop of Old Red Sandstone at the top of the mountain in Ballyduff. Known as the Fairy Chair (the hill is called Fairy hill), this outcrop is described by Seward in Topographica hibernica (1795) as the judgement seat where the brehon of the Fitzpatrick held his court. Tradition attributes a group of small round impressions on top of the rock to the saint's fingertips. On a flagstone below the seat itself is a mark resembling a horse's hoof, marking the spot whence the animal leapt away south into the bog of Monelly. A stone circle occurs near the summit of Kyle hill in Kilcreman and beside it is a standing stone, a little over a metre high."

This "stone circle" does exist - it is a ring-barrow that may have had a number of stones standing in its ring at one stage.

Royal Inauguration in Gaelic Ireland by Elizabeth Fitzpatrick pg 135 says broadly the same thing except it gives a location that it "is found adjacent to a small stone enclosure at the northern end of Kyle Hill on the Offaly-Laois border."

John Gleeson in "History of Ely O'Carroll Territory" pg 619 says it is located on "the slope of the Slieve Bloom mountain".

& On pg 640 he references Seward's Topographia Hibernica 1797 "it is near the top of the hill on its east side, and formed from solid rock." He goes on to say

"The MacGeoghans, or MacEgans were brehons of the Fitzpatricks. This chair is situated near a point where three counties meet, King's Co. and Tipperary in Ely O'Carroll, and Queen's Co. in Osory. It is situated near the ancient road which led from Cloncourse Castle to the King's Co. The Brehon's Chair is a rock on a sharp eminence within a circle of mountains, with a small plateau in front. Underneath the chair there is a small round cavity in the rock, which is known as the Ink Bottle. In Christian times it was given the name by which it is known in the locality at present, St. Thomas's Seat".

Rev. Gleeson was based in Knock and Kyle as a priest there for a time, so his knowledge should have been fairly accurate.

I've marked the "stone circle" and two of the townlands mentioned - Ballyduff & Kilcreman. There is a peak (757) on the border of the two townlands. There is however a higher unmarked peak to the east of here (which I have marked). That seems to be the highest point.

 

What was the druid Mogh Ruith's "Rowing Wheel" and how did part of it end up near Tipperary Town?

© John Gilroy

I was reminded recently about a standing stone near Tipperary Town that was reputed to have been part of Mogh Ruith's "Rowing Wheel". 

I first came across a reference to it in John Gilroy's book "Tlachtga - Celtic Fire Festival" (which was published in 2000) and went to look for it a few times around 2008. 

© John Gilroy

In his book he says on pg 80 about the "Rowing Wheel" (he calls it a "Flying Wheel") "O'Curry tells us that it was finally destroyed at the Battle of Sollyhead about three miles west of Tipperary in or about the year 941AD. One part of the Flying Wheel remains as a curiously sculpted stone pillar in the townland of Dromline, outside Tipperary town." 

He also includes a photo of the stone which is included here above. 

At the time I would have only had Discovery OS maps and I searched around the townland of Dromline for any standing stones (There were none marked I believe). There were two stones in the nearby townland of Knockballynoe and while looking for those, I spoke to a farmer near there who thought there was a stone in "Kavanaghs farm". I also emailed the author at the time about it but didn't hear anything back. 

Knockballynoe Standing Stone / Menhir – The Modern Antiquarian.com

In 2023 I have a lot more tools available to me than just boots on the ground. I went back to Gilroy's book and he gives a reference to O'Curry's work. It is slightly incorrect but he seems to be referring to "Lectures on the manuscript materials of ancient Irish history" by O'Curry which is available online here. 

I did a search within it and found the paragraphs relating to Tipperary in it. On pg 402/ 403 it says

"As to the first prediction, that is, the coming of what is called the Brat Baghach or Flag of Battles, it is evident enough that this was to be a fleet of the Danes or Northmen, who were to be broken against the pillar-stone of Cnámhchoill. Now Cnámhchoill was an ancient wood situated near the present town of Tipperary ; and the history of the pillar-stone which stood in it, as it is handed down to us, is shortly this :- Mogh Ruith, the Archdruid of Erinn, having, as we have seen in a former Lecture, exhausted, the druidic knowledge of the best masters in Erinn and Scotland, travelled with his daughter into Italy, where they put themselves under the tuition of Simon Magus, and assisted him in his contention with the apostles. And it was with their assistance that Simon was said to have built the Roth Ramhach, or "Rowing Wheel", by means of  which he sailed in the air, to show that his miraculous powers were greater than those of the apostles. The Druid and his daughter (whose name was Tlachtga) returned home afterwards, the daughter carrying with her what remained of the materials of the Rowing-Wheel, which appears to have consisted of two pieces of rock, one of which she set up in Forchairthinn (somewhere in the neighbourhood of Raith Chúmhaill (Rath Coole, I think, in the present county of Dublin), and the other at Cnámhchoill (in Tipperary). These rocks or pillars, it was said, retained their shape of the destructive influence of the "Rowing Wheel", as every one who looked at them was struck with blindness, and every one who touched them, with death. The reason, we are further informed, why this fearful Rowing Wheel, was to pass with destruction over Europe in the latter times, was, because there was a pupil from every nation in Europe at the school of Simon Magus, assisting him in the contention with the Apostles (see same APP.). Now the three events predicted were here appear to me to have occurred in the years 941, 979, and 1096, and were, I am very sure, well known historical facts at the time that this poem was written. 

The first, the destruction of the Rowing Wheel, was, I believe, the great battle of the wood of Salchóid (or Sollyhead, about three miles to the west of the present town of Tipperary), near enough to Cnámhchoill for the verification of a post-prophecy." 

So it says explicitly that parts of the "Rowing-Wheel" was 'set up' at Cnámhchoill. "the daughter carrying with her what remained of the materials of the Rowing-Wheel, which appears to have consisted of two pieces of rock, one of which she set up in Forchairthinn (somewhere in the neighbourhood of Raith Chúmhaill (Rath Coole, I think, in the present county of Dublin), and the other at Cnámhchoill (in Tipperary)." 

When I was conducting other research on Holy Wells in Tipperary I came across the name Cnámhchoill in relation to a Holy Well in the townland of Springhouse. 

Today Cnámhchoill seems to be made up of the townlands of Corrogemore, Corrogebeg and Cleghile (according to Flynn in his paper from 1913 -  Ancient mounds and earthworks near Tipperary Town. North Munster Antiquarian Journal 3, no.1, 5-21. (Available here) They are just to the west of the townland of Dromline (The small townland of Knockfobole is between Dromline and Cleghile). 

This area seems to have been very important in antiquity and was a border place often defining where the Diocese of Cashel and Emly and the larger Ormond and Desmond met (see page 10 of Flynn's paper). 

In the townland of Corrogemore on the Historic 25" Maps are the following 

There were a number of mounds / mottes, a church / graveyard and also a standing stone called 'Coirthe Tlachgha". The Sites & Monuments record describes it as follows:

"In Dinneen's dictionary (1927) 'Coirthe' means a stone, particularly a memorial stone and 'Tlachtgha' means 'a seat of early rights'. In the 1970s the graveyard was incorporated into the adjacent quarry and at that time the standing stone was broken and pushed into the SE edge of the graveyard."

Unfortunately as this aerial photo (below) of the same area shows today, I'm not sure if that stone is still in place.  It is close to what looks like a very busy quarry and things like this have the habit of going missing in those kind of situations. The inspection by the NMS was carried out in 2014 so hopefully it is. 

The above description doesn't sound like the picture / area that we have of this standing stone that was included at the very top of this article from Gilroy's book "Tlachtga - Celtic Fire Festival". 

I wonder could the picture be another part of this broken standing stone that was maybe removed elsewhere for safe-keeping? 

The name Cnámhchoill is fascinating and is likely to come from "Wood of the bones". There is also a ridge in Cleghile known as "Hill of the Skull" and so this whole area is fascinating (See TS067-122001).

Is all this mythology connected? I don't know. You could also argue, I think, that the area around Cnámhchoill could be some kind of inauguration landscape for local kings. The standing stone known as "Coirthe Tlachgha" or "the stone of a seat of early rights" sounds like that to me, along with the mounds and its border location, could have been part of an inauguration landscape. 

The mythology surrounding Mogh Ruith is confused - he seems to span a number of different time periods. Was the identification of the stone at Corrogemore with the Mogh Ruith story based on the similarity of its name with that of Mogh Ruith's daughter Tlachtga? 

Mug Ruith - Wikipedia

What was the "Rowing Wheel" that could travel through the air and unleash mass destruction meant to represent? More questions than answers. 

However there are two avenues for further research, firstly to see if the broken standing stone at Corrogemore near Tipperary Town is still there. Then to see if it is the same as the one in John Gilroy's book. If it isn't is there another part of the "Coirthe Tlachgha" somewhere in the neighbourhood? 

Whether this stone is part of Mogh Ruith's "Rowing Wheel" or a stone linked to an inauguration landscape, both are fascinating and may even be interlinked. The later inauguration landscape could possibly be trying to use the prestige of being linked to this ancient mythology. 

Please note that the lands of Corrogemore etc are private property and permission must be obtained before accessing. 

Ballymackey Castle and the last Chief of the O'Meara Clan

 

Ballymackey Castle in North Tipp.

It is probably best known as the residence of the last Chief of the O'Meara Clan - Morgan O'Meara.
"Morgan O'Meara, the last of the O'Mearas who exercised chieftancy over his sept, was heir to a patrimony which extended from Bennett's Bridge near Nenagh to beyond Toomevara itself, the burial place of the O'Meara's took its name from his family of which, heir male to the name, though not to the property, existed in the person of two nephews less than a century ago.
The O'Meara estates embraced a large portion of Upper Ormond. The residence of the O'Meara was at Ballymackey Castle, and there the old chieftain lived in princely style until he had gambled away his princely estates to a "friend" of his named Kilpatrick, from whom they were afterwards purchased by the Tolers, ancestors of Lord Norbury.
There was high festival and true Irish hospitality always kept up at Ballymackey Castle - the dwelling-house was attached to the old castle during the life of the O'Meara. He used to lay in a store of 30 pipes of claret at a time, and made one prolonged sitting of it while the liquor lasted. He was a first-rate sportsman, but he generally let others enjoy, while he drank, gambled or spent his time in similar enjoyments.
He was in politics a high Tory, and he saved the lawyers a great deal of trouble and his tenants a great deal of expense and annoyance by exercising a summary jurisdiction in cases brought before him in his magisterial capacity, his penalties being all imposed in a truly chieftain-like manner by thrashing the guilty parties with his stick. This stick is always carried in consequence of a lameness arising from having fallen out of a lofty vehicle which he was driving tandem-fashion accompanied by a companion.
O'Meara was perpetual Mayor of Cashel, the duties of which were performed by a deputy. He was also captain in the Nenagh Yeomanry, and his tall figure and attenuated features were remembered by old inhabitants. He always kept a piper to enliven his company, and a very clever artist he was. He was stone-blind and thought so highly of himself that he would drink nothing but claret. The piper's name was Forrester.
The usual change came slowly but surely - almost all the estates were gambled away, and O'Meara was enabled to preserve only a small annuity to support himself in his old age. He lived up to the year 1829, and his remains were interred in Ballymackey. His town house was Barrack Street, the present Garda barracks.
Above Morgan O'Meara was son of another Morgan O'Meara and Eliza Pennefather, who married in 1731. He had a brother, General Daniel O'Meara, commander of the forces in Jamaica, who married in 1798 Mary, daughter of Sir Joseph Peacocke of Barntick near Ennis. The General lived in Thomas Street, Limerick, and had two sons who were well-known and very popular in that city in the middle of the last century. He had a daughter who married Rev. Richard Studdert of Quin, Co. Clare, in 1818.
N.B. Balllymackey Castle mentioned above, originally an O'Kennedy castle, was once the residence of Sir Robert Cole. he acquired the Ballymackey estate from the Ffrank family of Frankfurt, Roscrea by purchase. He was M.P. for Enniskillen in 1661 and was knighted in 1671.
N.B - John Peacocke O'Meara of Castleconnel and Wm. H O'Meara, Surgeon. "Urgent", living in 1887."
Pg 51 & 52 from Sheehans Nenagh and its Neighbourhood: https://askaboutireland.ie/.../sheehan-nenagh-and-its-ne/

The castle looks to be much larger than a regular tower-house in North Tipp (even taking into account a possible residence that was added to it). It is located within a piggery. However it was possible to photograph it recently from the road.
I had searched for the grave of Morgan O'Meara in Ballymackey graveyard before but not been able to find it. If anyone knows its location that would be of interest. The whole story of Morgan O'Meara is fascinating (if true), he sounds like a really interesting character. Sometimes there is a certain myth involved in falls from grace such as this.

Round Towers of Ireland: Some common questions about them and an attempt at answering them

 

We don't know what the function of a round tower was? 

Round towers have been recorded in the various Annals as Cloigteach which translates as a Bell tower.

We don't know how old round towers are? 

This was dealt with as far back as 1845 by George Petrie in which he convincingly dated them to the medieval period. His paper is available to download here. 

https://archive.org/details/ecclesiasticalar00petr

Architectural evidence has always pointed to them being of medieval date, mainly by association with the neighbouring buildings but also similar architectural features. See O'Keeffe's Ireland's Round Towers 64-91.

Pg 71 "Why do we date these arched doorways - and the towers in which they feature - to this particular period? It is partly on negative grounds: we expect post-1130 doorways to be more elaborate. It is also partly on comparative grounds. The true arch, by which is meant an arch made with voussoirs, seems only to appear in church architecture in the later eleventh and early twelfth centuries. It was used specifically for the chancel arches of a small number of churches, and yet the churches in question continued to possess the older, lintelled, form of doorway. Indeed, the type of round-arched doorway which we find in the Round Towers was used very rarely in churches, so it is tempting to suggest the first true arches in Ireland were those in the towers. If true arches were in use in Round Tower doorways over a long period of time - before, say, 1050 - we might expect to find them being replicated on church doorways: in fact, the opposite happens: rather than churches borrow from Round Towers, the towers seem to borrow from the churches." 

Corlett, 26 "Round-headed doorways and windows first appeared in Irish church architecture towards the end of the eleventh century and flourished during the twelfth century, when the round arch was at the centre of Romanesque architecture and decoration." 

An early excavation by Rev. John Browne on the interior of the Kildare round tower in 1843 found some fragments of mid twelfth century bracteate coins under the floor (Corlett, 26).

This was strengthened by a date of the mortar from the round tower in Clonmacnoise which was shown to be medieval in date. 

Also Rattoo has been radiocarbon dated to the later 11th century (O'Keeffe, 66).

Very recent excavations at Derry and Kilkenny have down that the towers were built over medieval deposits so it pretty conclusively dates them. 

Regarding Kilkenny 

"The exact date at which the tower was constructed is not recorded historically but its round-headed doorway, evidence for diagonal tooling and lintelled windows are suggestive of a date in the 12th century. Recent radiocarbon dates from human skulls in the National Museum of Ireland, from skeletons excavated under the foundations in the 19th century, dates its construction to after AD 990. It could be suggested that it was the formalisation of Kilkenny’s status as cathedral at the 1111 synod of Rathbressail that was the catalyst for the tower’s construction, perhaps by the then king of Ossory Domnall mac Donnchada Mac Gilla Patráic. In 1846 and 1847 James Graves investigated both the internal and external base of the tower and reported that it stood on a stone plinth that rested on ‘a black and yielding mould, from which protruded human bones in an east and west direction’. Inside the tower Graves noted a 2.3m deep dump over a mortared floor pavement that was on the same level as the external base course of the tower. These overlying layers contained disarticulated human bones, bird guano, animal bones and dolomite debris, considered as having derived from the tower’s construction. An intermediate layer showed evidence for burning and it was suggested it may have been associated with historically attested attacks on the church in 1085 and 1114. Graves also reported that five articulated human burials were encountered after the removal of the pavement. Excavations by Kilkenny Archaeology around the base of the tower in 2013 uncovered its offset plinth foundation which had been constructed directly onto the graveyard soil. When compared with a plan of the tower by Graves and Prim its foundations can be seen to have comprised a 1.2m wide circular ring. The excavation was funded by the Select Vestry of St Canice's Cathedral and the radiocarbon dates by the Heritage Council, with the permission of the National Museum of Ireland."

Kilkenny excavation 

This is based on an excavation by Coilin O Drisceoil

Regarding Derry

Derry Round Tower

There are also references to them being constructed in some of the medieval annals. 

See Annals of Four Masters &  Chronicon Scotorum for references to building at Clonmacnoise (AFM1124, CS1124), and at Annadown (AFM1238)

How did you get up into a round tower and why was the door so high up?

It is likely that a wooden staircase was used to get up into round-towers. Possible evidence of one these structures was found during excavations at Inis Cealtra / Holy Island in Co. Clare on Lough Derg. 

 

Round towers were to protect against pillaging Vikings and were used for defence? 

It seems unlikely other than for a very short space of time. They wouldn't offer great protection and if the timber stairs inside went on fire, the people inside would be in big trouble.

Round towers were laid out to the pattern of stars in the sky?

Any map this I have seen doesn't take into account the numerous towers that have been recorded in the annals but are now destroyed. 

​The Irish Round-Tower Star-Map Mystery - ANCIENT MYSTERIES (weebly.com)

The one here just ignores a lot of the standing ones also. 

Do round towers exude energy or are the on ley lines? 

Similar to the above, the proposed ley lines don't seem to take into account the known round towers that have been destroyed over the years. 

Regarding dowsing - I refer people to this - Dowsing - Wikipedia

Were skeletons located when cleaning out the "bottom" of the round towers votive deposits?

Unlikely, many round towers were built in and around existing early Christian sites. Many may have early burials that they may have came across while digging the foundations of the round tower. Maybe this area was just a convenient place to deposit the remains. 

Corlett, Chris. “Interpretation of Round Towers: Public Appeal or Professional Opinion?” Archaeology Ireland, vol. 12, no. 2, 1998, pp. 24–27. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/20558757.

Discovery of Bullaun Stone in Timoney near Roscrea

 

Always nice to help record a previously unrecorded monument. This bullaun stone in Timoney townland not far from Roscrea hadn't been recorded in the Sites & Monuments Record before. It is located about 40m from a nearby church and graveyard. It has at least bowls carved into an earthfast rock.

I think this is the 4th bullaun stone I have been involved with adding to the records in Tipperary.

I'm sure lots of people have passed this and just assumed that it was known about but as I always say if anyone has any doubts that something might be recorded drop me a PM and I will try help. Either that or contact the National Monuments Service directly.